03:43 Keskey: Well, we're live here at The Immersion Lab, today, at Media Design Practices. And we have an awesome guest here, we have Cyrus Ghahremani. And I'll...
03:55 Amor: So my name is Amor and this is Keskey and we're an Artist and Design collective here at MDP doing our graduate work and we're gonna be basically exploring some of these themes, these topical themes, and we'll have a live interactive participation from the audience at the end of this to close out some of this content that's being produced or has been produced. To start things off, maybe you can tell us what inspired you to create Telenova Live, and maybe a little bit about what led you to that personal quest.
04:32 Cyrus Ghahremani: Sure. So for anyone that doesn't know, my name is Cyrus Ghahremani, I was a co-founder at Super Deluxe, a part of Turner, just a kind of odd antithesis to the BuzzFeeds and all that of the net. And I was their head of live video there. So we were doing different stabs at viral video and social media excitement when Facebook Live launched as a product. And at that point, streaming and Twitch and all that had already been a thing. But Facebook Live offered a new way to look at it and to do more socially integrated live streaming, and I was put in charge of that.
05:22 CG: And I think when we're dropping right into projects like telenovela and the other interactive things we did, I think it's important to understand that when this product launched, there was just one way that everyone was using it. On Facebook, everyone was using it from their phones and they were... It was basically a lazy way to FaceTime with an intern at a company or people were going full television production with it, which also didn't seem right to me. I was deeply bored with everything that everyone was doing and all the opportunities that were there, and I think that that's a really important thing to grab on to when you're gonna try to decide what to do differently.
06:10 CG: Clinging to the interactivity of things, I thought, "There has to be an interactive version of everything that... Of everything that has existed in TV or media, there's a new lens to look at it through now. So with a soap opera, for instance, we thought, "What if the plot points were determined by a viewer?" Or my involvement there in the beginning was just, I want to do a chose-your-own-adventure in live streaming. I had an amazing team of directors and one of them, Daniela Hamilton was the lead on the telenovela. So I can't take credit, really, for the writing or execution of it, just for the steps that led up to it. And knowing that in the beginning, when we started doing live projects, they weren't going well, both from things going wrong and from any sort of viral spark not really being there yet. And what we decided to look at is that we're part of this whole television company and all this pressure to be like, "Well look, these people are getting millions of views doing parodies and other trite stuff like that." We're like, "If we only have 1,000 people watching a live stream but we get 1,000 people... Or 1,000 engagements on it, then people are really very committed to what's going on and invested in what they can do to it, then that's more valuable. And the more we focused on engagements and making as many interactive points in everything we did, inversely the views would go up. And it was like the single point of all of our growth.
08:04 CG: So the telenovela, we would write out this basic plot for what could happen, but put in as many points throughout it where even if it isn't something that affects the story, but something as simple as while we're setting up to change scenes, letting the audience vote on the wardrobe of an extra or a prop that ends up getting thrown into the scene or something to surprise the cast with, people were really excited by that.
08:38 Keskey: Yeah, definitely. And you mentioned about this whole I guess tool or device you made with... You implemented with voting. That's super interesting. Maybe you can give us some background. What led you towards that kind of course of interaction?
08:53 CG: Sure. So on Facebook, and it's still this way, mostly, that the only input we were able to take from viewers was through reaction button voting and from the chat. So we made our own suite of tools, very simple stuff, where we connected to the API, and we're just listening for certain either changes in reaction or keywords that they've said and then graph that on screen. Basically, made individual webpages that were just a green background and kind of what's here, but not here. [laughter] And just a green background with different emojis on top of it, percentages, so people would basically be seeing the results and it was simple enough that they were voting based on what the results looked like and then the results would change. It was as minimal as possible. And now those sort of tools, at first it was like our secret weapon. But now through Vidpresso, Vidpresso is now free to anybody. Facebook acquired them so you can design things exactly like we had without needing much programming background or expertise.
10:05 CG: Also, there's this huge culture on Twitch with extensions that do the same thing. But the basic idea was, sometimes the mental exercise was less about how do we figure out an interactive version of this and more thinking abstractly like, "What would the video game version of this be?" So it would be the most... The simplest idea like a massage. It'd be like getting a massage, and thinking like, "What would a massage video game be like?" And that ended up being the construction for an entire stream we would do. Where it's like interactive massage. Who do you want to massage? Which massage oil? What technique? And using this GoPro on the person's head. And it was just so out there, and not very clever, but so deeply interactive that people responded really well to it.
11:04 Amor: Sure.
11:07 Keskey: Yeah, I think the whole... I think it's very smart how you went about incorporating the voting, as well as just having this aspect of audience engagement. It's like so many people these days are just on mobiles and they're on their screens. And so that aspect, we totally love about the work that you've created.
11:27 CG: Cool, thank you.
11:30 Keskey: I think it's that you're in the area of the future of television or even entertainment itself. And going off of that, what in terms of... What are some of the motivations for you to get into this area of live streaming video beyond, before you started with the company? Were there certain interests or anything like that? Maybe some background.
11:54 CG: Yeah, I think that... None of it was super on purpose, but looking back, there are a lot of little things I got involved with that makes the whole arc of my career makes sense. I think about one project I did as a YouTube Live thing, this was maybe like 2013. I had a project with the comedians, Jon Daly and Tim Heidecker, called 2:30 PST. The dumbest possible idea, which was that at 2:30 PST, we'd go live, and try to get #230PST to trend on Twitter. And it's just a lazy talk show where they're sitting around and if they wanted to, they could point at me and I'd hit a sound effect. But we started doing things pre-Twitter... Or pre-Twitch, pre-extensions where as people are Tweeting it, their #230PST tweets are at the bottom of the screen and there was some arbitrary voting on things to happen, it was just like an odd ball variety talk show, but it worked, it got that hashtag trending every time for no reason and does feel like that's connective in some way to what I ended up doing at Super Deluxe or what I'll be doing in the future.
13:16 CG: And even before any of that, it's just, I've played around on the internet and on forums and in little, being able to be part of a little online community that feels like they're in on something, or in on a joke is just... If... You can't have all of your work come from a disdain for what everyone else is doing. It also has to be from some love and nostalgia for what got you into the internet in the first place. And live video in particular is like, it's the only thing we have where there's chatrooms now. And I have such an easy time going back to AOL [chuckle] and just talking to strangers. Super Deluxe had six million fans actively participating and engaging on everything we'd put out. But live video is just a small sliver of it. That said, the live projects were the only time that random fans would talk to each other or work together on a vote for something. Or recognize each other from other posts. It became its own little community and that's... That was a big motivator for being consistent with it.
14:33 Keskey: We also know... How much would you say is your background in music plays into a lot of the work that plays out today?
14:43 CG: I think that the work I've done in music contributes to the live work in two ways. One is in the ability to improvise, because things go wrong constantly, and you have to be able to just... You still have to be able to put something out or to make a quick change that can come off as it was on purpose even though it wasn't. And so that's the first connection, is that I can't tell you how many shows I had done where I got off and said, "I messed up every song." And people said, "That was perfect. You guys didn't mess up at all." That's every musician's experience where you're like, "No, it was supposed to be different." That's how live video feels sometimes too. Just 'cause it's new. The other thing is that, projects with... I've done a lot of music projects with comedians too, that are based on getting an audience response. So for instance, I've done some songs with this comedian, Jon Daly, where just for example: Last year, he ended up in this beef with a rapper called, Lil Xan. Do you know who Lil Xan is?
16:04 Amor: No.
16:04 CG: He's a child with face tattoos that John was on Twitter saying, "I'm your dad." And we ended up producing a full song and putting it out that's like, "I'm your dad." And it's great. But basically, this seems like it couldn't possibly be connected. But it is in that being able to do something in real time and not go through this whole production process and post-production and all that. But put out some sort of media that relates to a conversation or joke very quickly, is huge. And I think that... I think that's something really appealing with... It's appealing to creatives and to companies, of brands and everything that... Video is expensive and frustrating. And a lot of times, a good creative idea can get ruined by too much post and/or over-cooking something or over-thinking something. And when you're just working in live video... Even Super Deluxe being an off-the-wall company, there was still a lot of curation and notes in the projects that would get greenlit and then something would get shot and then EPs would be giving notes on the edits of it for weeks and eventually, it would be put out and at that point, it was either... Had been too long or there wasn't... It just wasn't as fresh.
17:39 CG: Whereas in live, we got around all of the red tape and rules that were put on us by being like, "It doesn't exist yet, we'll see." And as soon as it was put out, we'd be able to know what worked and what didn't and improve really quickly, rather than guessing, "We think this will work." We'd just try something and if it didn't work, we would just do it differently the next time rather than replace it with something else. Or change our... Change the editing style or something like that. It's just... It's as boiled down as possible to just what your idea is and how you do it versus other types of media. And it's just... That just really appealed to me 'cause that's how I work musically with John and others, just being like, "No, just use your first take and just put out something as quick as possible." Because the extra polish doesn't... Isn't gonna make this more... Isn't gonna make this funnier.
18:42 Keskey: Right, that's... Yeah, I think that's something definitely a lot of artists, designers should probably have that kind of approach, just to not worry so much about the finished end, the product. This is a process. And a lot of your work sounds like it's process-based and showing it live is definitely what we see in your work that you've done for Super Deluxe and especially also in your work that you've done as a... Within the domain of music as well.
19:09 CG: Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I guess, there's two types of artists and one's not better than the other. But to be... One is able to pull the curtain down from their work and say, "Voila!" And the other just creates constantly. And live video lends itself to the latter.
19:30 Keskey: Totally, yeah. And so another question we want to ask you was about, what storytelling devices did you create or use in Super Deluxe?
19:44 CG: So storytelling devices, you mean... So I guess... The main thing to address would be that almost all of the live video we did was unscripted, and the story that would get told is about the audience's participation and teamwork with each other. We did things like the telenovela, that were scripted, but the vast majority, probably 600 hours of it were very unscripted ideas where it's a game show and they're the judges on it or... I started getting really drawn to things where they had to work as a team. So for instance, I had this kind of reverse "guess who?" game where there was a police sketch artist that the audience could see a photo of a person and the sketch artist can't. So they're all trying to describe to the artist, what the person looks like, and they're working together, being like, no bigger eyebrows or smaller eyebrows, like pointier jaw shape and they're giving these different notes and really trying to work together to shape the thing to... So they can feel like they won.
21:02 CG: That's where... That's like the, I guess, like storytelling device that... I don't know. I feel like "storytelling device" isn't the right word there, but it's the most interesting thing about it for me is that so much of the internet is this one-way relationship of just watching things that were made for you and this was the opportunity to flip it and to be, let's... We actually have an opportunity to change the outcome of this thing. And that doesn't have to mean something as plain as, let's change the scripted ending to this story, but more that the media you're watching is worth watching because you don't know what it's gonna look like yet. This kinda tree-falls-in-the-woods thing. So we encourage that both through the creative ideas that we chose, and also through different tools to get them... Get their fingerprints on the pieces more. So outside of just comments being featured and voting, creating ways that they were able to submit photos and audio, and call in and upload video and then beyond that, taking it into the real world, even.
22:26 CG: So we'd set up a sign-spinning person on a corner for instance and just said it as simple as, "If you Venmo a dollar, we'll change this person's sign to say whatever you want." And people were so drawn to this and kept doing that because, they kept sending in $1 at a time, just 'cause they were like, "There's no way... There's no way that anything I want can be written on this person's sign." And then being able to test someone's disbelief is a really exciting part of making things for the internet.
23:04 Keskey: Yeah, yeah, definitely, you were talking about a lot of engagement. I think there's not enough of it on today's internet, in terms of the output. It's just like creating content, putting it out with a lack of engagement. And going off of that, that area, you chose Facebook Live, why choose Facebook Live versus something like YouTube, for instance?
23:31 CG: I chose Facebook over YouTube... We did do some stuff to YouTube also. But Facebook so drastically outperformed it for us because of the ability to pull other people in. So I created a tool that was basically like a meter that would fill as people shared the post. If you share a YouTube video to your Google+ profile or something, it's like, maybe your mom sees it, and then you have a weird phone call the next day. [chuckle] But if you share something on Facebook, it would just exponentially grow the audience. It was also a really neat side effect to having these engagement tools where someone might not actually like the video that we're making but they wanna say... They wanna experiment with that. It says like, "Hit like and we throw an egg at this person." Then it ends up saying, "Amor likes this video," and it shows up in all of your friends' feeds. So it was just this... It was kind of just capitalizing on what we saw working for getting as many new eyes on something as possible.
25:00 CG: I think that a problem with YouTube's platform over Facebook's is that when you get into a very high traffic stream... I had done a project with a YouTube star called Poppy. We did like a "Call Poppy" live that there were just too many people in the chat, it was unreadable, just flying by. Whereas on Facebook, if you get to over 1,000 people or so, it splits you into multiple rooms and is able to keep the experience feeling small, small enough to be able to talk to people. I think that's important.
25:42 Amor: When it comes to a lot of these community practices, is there any community management that you were faced with in terms of offensive behavior or streaming?
25:56 CG: Yeah, for sure. The internet is full of super rotten people but the simplest way we got around it is that you have to kind of accept that if someone's gonna comment something on a page, they're gonna comment something on a page. But we at least had the... We set up the ability very early on that embedding comments into the bottom of our streams would be pretty typical to everything we do and at the very least, we could put in word filters and all that to make sure that of the... 'Cause we had this other page altogether that would in one column be showing all of the comments and in the other, we could basically queue up the ones we liked and pin them to the bottom of the screen. And those sort of tools now are also available to everyone through Vidpresso if you're doing Facebook and there are other extensions to do that through Twitch. I don't think that there's any YouTube tool to do that.
26:58 CG: But the first thing we would do is just make sure that those didn't become options through pretty basic word filtering or blocking users, not blocking them from being able to watch or blocking them from being able to comment, but just saying that we're not interested in their comments. And yeah, we would just make sure that it was all curated. Whatever actually got shown on screen or was discussed, we would curate.
27:29 Keskey: Going off of what you said about curation, I guess, what were some ways that you approached the curation process of it within those kind of live feeds?
27:44 CG: I guess there's a couple of different things to think about. One is that you have to... I feel like it's really important to... When you see something that's interactive for the message to always be that this isn't like an untouchable thing for you, new viewer to also interact with. So I would... The first thing that we would avoid is featuring things from the same person multiple times. So you have to give some sort of impression of variety and be curating from as many people as possible. The other is that some things that people offer up in a chat are a little more playful and creative in terms of suggestions, on a suggestion-based show. You can just kind of tell when someone gets the spirit of what you're trying to make and that seeing one comment be rewarded, might lead to more.
28:51 CG: I don't know, so much of this I've never talked about before because it became a completely subconscious process of everything that we were doing. It's more of the sensitivities about bad practices, like the same person's profile being put up a bunch of times. But I guess to add on to the creativeness and the playfulness of people's suggestions, the other thing to think about in curating is that I think that an overly curated thing presents a problem that we faced a lot, which was that we, in every project we did, we had commenters saying that this wasn't live. They did not believe it. They're like, "Nope, these comments are fake, this isn't live, this is pre-recorded," and we'd have to address those head on, too. So I guess part of that would be to see if that sort of dialogue is happening. I feel like it's really... This is... Live video is still in a phase where it's fun to address that. And the other is that if some sort of... If there's some obvious trend or liked comment or something in a feed, you have to acknowledge it too.
30:22 Amor: I feel like some of the things that you're bringing up with managing these social networks, now that you're going into Twitch, how would that change your practice?
30:37 CG: I'm not sure, I don't really... I don't really know yet, but I think that... I think a lot of the principles are the same. There's a big difference in doing work for a media conglomerate versus doing work for a platform, and Twitch is really brilliant in that it isn't about the first-party content there or their own creative idea, it's this user-based platform that's pretty phenomenal. Could you specify, I'm not really sure.
31:19 Amor: Yeah, based on... You had a better hand on, I guess, the ethics or the morals that were built into the live interactions that you just spoke about. Moving forward, are there some of these ideas or concepts that you would like to further test or elaborate, or maybe shift based on the direction that you're heading in now or whatever your plans are moving forward?
31:47 CG: Yeah, it's a tricky thing, tricky thing to talk about. I think that bringing up ethics in general, I realized that the ethics of what I was doing at Super Deluxe were not always strong. I think that was part of the excitement of it. Just for example, we did a project quite a few times that I called Human Tamagotchi at Super Deluxe that was a person in a room... It was like a human version of The Sims where it was just a person in an empty room and then the audience was able to basically spend their points to give this person furniture or food, and they might write on the wall like, "Thirsty." And they'd have the choice between a good and evil option, like they could give the person water if they're writing on the wall like, "Water." Or they could keep sending them like cans of Rockstar. And... Oh yeah, this is one of them here. This was the test one. [chuckle]
33:03 CG: I think that in this sort of unscripted game show you format the good and evil choice is... It never felt evil to be making the show, even when the person ended up basically being tortured because it was an audience's decision. Just kind of like a playful ethics experiment. I think that as long as people aren't hurt and aren't damaging their lives, there's a lot to experiment with, and it's all going to be based on a willingness for the creator of a livestream to... How much control they're willing to give the audience for what's happening. But yeah, it's not really a question I can answer. I think we just have to see where live video goes.
33:56 Amor: That's a good way to go into this, yeah.
34:02 Keskey: Segue. Yeah. So the next part we wanted to do was talk about some of your projects that you've got.
34:08 CG: Sure, sure.
34:09 Keskey: Maybe go more deep, but we wanted to ask the in-house audience here at The Immersion Lab and maybe do like a quick tally of maybe what projects they might wanna take a look at. We'll just bring it up here on the screen for everyone to see. Yeah, so we'll start there.
34:27 Amor: With a raise of hands, what would you like to see here and talk to Cyrus about project Super Deluxe's Election Map? Or...
34:42 Keskey: Or the Tortoise versus the Hare live?
34:47 Amor: So we'll take category one first.
34:50 Keskey: Yeah. So who would like Tortoise versus Hare?
34:52 Amor: Okay, alright. We have a winner.
34:54 Keskey: Okay, so we have five, we have all of them here doing it.
34:58 Amor: Okay.
34:58 Keskey: We're gonna go into that, awesome. Cool, cool. Let's do that. What were some of your thoughts around this project that you're developing?
35:07 Amor: What are some of the reasons as to why someone would get engaged or drawn into these types of video streams? And if you can share or give some feedback or background on your project, that'd be great.
35:20 CG: Sure. So this Tortoise and Hare stream, this was an idea pitched to me by a director I love named Cal Hanlon, Callum Hanlon. And he was like, "There's these tropes and very familiar ideas like a tortoise versus hare story everyone knows. Why not just do it live? People will be so curious how it plays out." And my thought on it is, "This will be extremely boring to watch." And having done some odd projects with pets before, with animals, they don't do what you want them to do. So, my approach to doing this was just to over-edit it, do too many cuts, add explosions and ripping rock and roll guitars, and make it seem like it's the most exciting event ever. But check it out, it was like, "Go!" And like, nope, nothing. And oddly enough, with so little excitement on screen, this is the most watched thing I've ever done. We had 127,000 live viewers at a time while this was live and ended up being millions in the end after it was archived.
36:53 CG: And we just kept cutting, you can... I don't know if you can hear it on the feed. But every time the camera's cutting or a comment is put on screen, there's either an air horn or an explosion. It was just so obnoxious. [laughter] But even with just this situation going on, the live thing that I just hadn't even totally thought of before we went live with it, 'cause I thought this would be a dud. But then once the chat started really blowing up, we were featuring prompts about... The audience was directing it being like... The audience started feeding us like, #teamtort, #teamhare. And so, this betting element started coming in.
37:45 CG: And yeah, it just... Look at these two. [laughter] Yeah, so this went on for, I believe, 45 minutes. And it's like, I think that the hare got... If I remember correctly, the hare gets to the finish line and then goes back and falls asleep, and the tortoise wins. It's unbelievable. But yeah, it's just stranger than fiction. Could not have planned it. But yeah, we learned some... Because of how this worked and because of the audience splitting into team hare and team tort, people being so passionate about it, people being in on the joke, being like, "This is so intense. This is the most exciting thing I've ever watched," when it very clearly wasn't. There was just some magic in there. We ended up doing other projects where if it was a competition show, for instance, we did something where two guys ate edibles and then tried to put together IKEA furniture, and using this as a method... I don't know if that's online anymore.
39:02 Amor: [chuckle] Okay.
39:03 CG: But using this as a learning point, right off the bat, we were figuring out ways to visualize who was getting the most crowd response. Kind of a visual equivalent to applause, like a sports match for people to be hashtagging what team they're on and to be rooting for one over the other. I think you'll see a lot more of that from people like Twitch too as they have this... On Facebook also, it's like people can go live with someone else. Instagram, people go live, and it's like a split screen. I think that you'll see people creating situations where kind of like a live version of all these different YouTube challenges, I think you'll see people that are setting up competitive things where it's fun to watch because you wanna see how it's gonna turn out.
39:58 Amor: Do you wanna fast forward?
40:00 Keskey: Yeah, let's fast forward it.
40:00 CG: Yeah, let's see...
40:05 CG: Look at him.
40:07 CG: Tortoise right at the end there.
40:09 Keskey: Right. [chuckle]
40:13 CG: Yeah, very fond of this. Super happy with it.
40:18 Keskey: Alright, so then this leads us into the next series. We're gonna again look to the audience and see maybe which project they would like for you to probably speak about.
40:29 CG: Sure.
40:31 Keskey: We were looking at maybe either... So we're gonna bring it on screen here, so let's do that here...
40:36 Amor: I wanted to see the other one.
40:38 CG: Yeah, I think on your own time. That whole tortoise/hare thing is still meditative and positive to watch.
40:48 Keskey: Alright. So we're gonna ask again the audience one more time, to either... We're gonna start with, if we can vote for either the Comey Testimony or vote for the Vicente interview.
41:00 Amor: Alright. The Vicente Fox, former Mexican President interview.
41:00 Keskey: Alright, let's do it. Vicente interview. Here we go. Alright.
41:22 CG: Cool. Is it playing or are we gonna chat about it?
41:25 Amor: Yes, it's good. Yes.
41:27 CG: Cool. This project, I wasn't actually involved with, but it did win our company a Webby. [chuckle] So I think that it's worth talking about. It was really interesting to be... I was just remembering this, that the Monday after, or the first work day we had after the election, our CEO called this emergency meeting of management to come together and debrief and talk about what we were gonna do. And of course, it felt like the end of the world, but it was also maybe a little overdramatic. But one of the things that came up was, we were in a position to... We could either just... We could mouth off ourselves or we could bring in people that we thought were funny to do that for us. And he had gotten some buzz for his... I don't know. I think he's hysterical, but he is zero BS in how he talks about this wall. And very well humored. It's this whole complicated thing, where all of his communication goes through his son, who's also named Vicente, and they arranged this whole thing for him to do the videos, and it's like it was pretty unfiltered him. But it does make me happy about a couple of things about what Super Deluxe was in terms of as diverse voices as possible, people outside the mainstream. And just an unrelenting sense of personality.
43:37 Keskey: Well, is there any last thoughts or anything you'd like to share with our audience here today, both in person as well as online service?
43:46 CG: Yeah, I don't know, I'm super happy to be here. And that I've had the fortune of being able to make some stuff that justifies that. But I think that the way that I felt about live video, when I jumped into it, and the way that everything was just selfie, camera, mobile stuff, a lot of that is the same for how live video is being used now, primarily around gaming. And I think that you don't need to be coming at it from the angle of... I had this Turner funding and granted, we were part of a big... My team was part of a big company that was part of a even bigger company, and Time Warner and Turner, and AT&T and all of this, I would love to just, now that it's over, share that the actual budget that we got to make things was so small that we were just bringing... It was very DIY and punky, like our control room was not television standard at all. We were using computers that we'd pieced together, software that we made from scratch. It isn't this unattainable thing to make projects that you think you'd have fun with.
45:16 CG: Even though Super Deluxe is now gone and maybe digital media in general isn't a great job prospect right now, I think that there's not as much distance between a creative and what they wanna make as you'd think. Some of our projects were like a couple hundred bucks to make. That's it. And so... Okay, so that's one thing. The other is that, what I was saying about the state of video now, you have to just think about what you'd rather be watching. And though all the gaming stuff has its worth, anyone that's watching this or hear or involved in Wobbly Realities or any of that, you can think of things that haven't been made yet because this is still a really new field. There are live interactive versions of almost everything that haven't been touched. And someone has to try doing it. The tools are all there. It's super accessible to just browse the Twitch extensions gallery and put together something that hasn't been done yet, but right now, a lot of that is up to nerve and a sense of adventure. With how little planning and how little post actually needs to be involved to do live video, I'm just hoping that more people will try jumping into it.
47:00 Keskey: Alright. Well, thank you for your time today.
47:04 CG: Cool.
47:05 Amor: Thank you.
47:06 Keskey: Thank you. We'll wrap things up here and...